for years now, donald trump has insisted his favorite book is the bible. for years now, he has also been seemingly unable or at least unwilling to recall any of its specifics. >> the whole bible is incredible. very much so, they hold up the art of the deal, i say my second favorite book of all time. i think the bible is very special. >> wondering what one or two of your most favorite bible verses are.

>> i wouldn't want to get into it. to me, that is very personal. when i talk about the bible, it is very personal. >> you don't want to get into a verse that means a lot to you ? >> the bible means a lot to me but i don't want to get into specifics. >> is there a favorite bible verse or bible story that has informed your thinking or character through life, sir ? >> i think many. when we get into the bible, i think many, so many. >> are you an old testament guy or new testament guy ? >> probably equal. >> you may think an aide would slip in a sheet of paper with john 3:16 so trump could pretend to know something about the bible. but, no. and, that reality is part of what makes trump's latest drift so amazing. >> all americans need a bible in their home and i have many. it's my favorite book. we must protect content that is pro-god. we love god and we have to protect anything that is pro-

god. we have to bring christianity back into our lives and back into what will be, again, a great nation. i am proud to endorse and encourage you to get this bible. we must make america pray again. i think you all should get a copy of god bless the usa bible now and help spread our christian values with others. >> donald trump hawking bibles while never having opened one himself is ironic but it is also not out of character. this is the man selling basketball shoes right now and i'm not sure his three pointer exists. the reason trump is peddling bibles and the reason it is interesting isn't because of the hypocrisy. the reason trump and his bible sales are interesting is because of the fine print here. this is the frequently asked

questions page from this new trump bible. if you were wondering, this is the only bible endorsed by donald trump, which may be alarming news. i don't know. the thing that actually matters here is the very last question on this list. is any of the money from this bible going to the donald j trump campaign for president? the answer is no. despite the fact trump's ad for this bible feels like a political, to make america pray again. despite that, money from the sale of these bibles does not go to any political cause. it goes to a politician. it goes to donald trump. according to the new york times, trump gets royalties from bible purchases, part of a licensing deal through a shell company. the money is split between this bible company and donald trump. at the end of the day, this is just trump getting his supporters to enrich him personally. the reason i point

this out isn't because i care particularly about donald trump making money off of bibles. it is because of this shell game here is a very much part of a pattern and we are seeing it repeat itself in a big way that could impact the 2024 election. you probably remember back in 2020 after losing the race, trump launched what he called his official election defense fund. between election day in january 6th, the trump campaign send millions of fundraising emails to supporters, sometimes as many as 25 emails a day. the fundraising pitch was that the democrats want to steal the election and that this fund needed your money to fight back. trump managed to raise $250 million with the sales pitch but there was one small problem with trump's official election defense fund. it didn't exist. >> i don't believe there is actually a fund called the election defense fund. >> trump really did raise $250 million but only a small fraction actually went toward anything resembling fighting back or challenging the 2020 election. if you read the fine print

while donating to trump's official election defense fund, you would before a single penny is given to trump's efforts to fight the election results, the first $5000.00 donated by any donor is split between the rnc and trumps save america political action, the. if you sent him $200.00, none of that would go toward the trump defense fund. now, today, the new york times is out with a very useful piece showing where all that money did go. it turns out that all of that $254 million windfall trump got from claiming the election was stolen, it turns out trump filed that money through a series of different accounts like his save america pac. the money was part of a shell game that ultimately paid donald trump's personal legal expenses. he used it to fill the $90,000.00 a day hole in his

pocket from the legal bills he has been incurring in his various civil and criminal cases. the other big showstopper in this piece today is that that big pot of money, it is nearly gone. now, with those coffers nearly run dry, trump is looking for another cash cow. next month, trump is set to hold a big-ticket fundraising dinner in palm beach, florida. the fine print on the invites to that dinner, that fineprint is telling. this is the first major fundraiser since trump got his daughter in law installed as the cochair of the rnc. lara trump has made publicly clear the rnc will not be paying trumps personal legal bills. again, look at the fine print. at this fundraiser next month, the invitation shows the first $6600.00 donated goes straight to trump's campaign. the next $5000.00 donated after

that go to trumps save america pac, the entity that has been paying his legal bills. in order to get money to the rnc, is to have to clear $11,600.00 in trump's own piggy banks. okay, the rnc isn't paying trumps legal fees but it's not as simple as that. it is a shell game. joining me now to discuss is kristi greenberg, former federal prosecutor who served in the southern district of new york and tim miller, writer at large at people work and cohost of the next level podcast. kristi, how is this legal? how can you, how can he keep saying this one thing and doing another? >> i think the big question here will be looking behind all of this is to who is coordinating it? if donald trump is coordinating between his campaign and the pac that is supposed to be

third parties and independent, the save america pac is independent third party, if there is sufficient coordination, you could prove that, then maybe you would have something to say. the six managers are not purely personal, these are campaign contributions. and, therefore, they should be subject to the limits of $5000 resents campaign contributions are subject to. it seems to me they are just trying to do an end run around these various regulations and it seems so transparent. the question is, will anybody look into this? will the fec look into this? will any prosecutors look into this ? it is unclear. >> we are on the eve, kind of, of the stormy daniels hush money payments case, which is $107,000. we are talking about a whopping sum of money that is being moved around various pacs and campaign arms and republican committees to ultimately help donald trump in his bid for the presidency. do you think this sort of conversation around the justice

department eating "webinars," will steer potential prosecutors off a case like this that seems so much greater in magnitude than what is already going to trial ? >> it feels like it already has. jack smith, as you pointed out, had looked into, had served subpoenas in connection with that nonexistent, as it turns out, election defense fund. he had served subpoenas and then he withdrew them and it was unclear why. that seems like such a clear- cut fraud. i question why that happened. perhaps it was optics, perhaps he felt like he had such strong cases with the january 6th case and the national security casey didn't want to seem as though he was trying to drain trump of his ability to legally defend against those cases. hard to say. i questioned at that time because that seemed like such a clear wire fraud case. maybe they had limited resources and didn't like the optics. i agree with you. this raises a lot of questions. someone somewhere, even if not

in the special counsel's office because they are pretty busy, so prosecutors should be looking to this. >> merrick garland, can you hear us ? tim, the other thing i find astounding is that somehow, donald trump makes a point, his campaign is predicated on the idea that he's so rich, he doesn't need any of this, he's a mole, he has all of this cash, why do working-class americans, why do trump supporters continue to give this man money when it is paying for a legal because he himself could pick up the tab for? >> good question. why do people continue to give money to drifting pastors at mega-churches too ? sometimes people don't like to admit that they have been had. i think that some of it is, it is not just a shell game and how he's moving the money around through different organizations, it also is the fact that he's been dishonest with supporters. this is, the segment is not

happening on newsmax. the segment is not happening on fox. certainly, there are some supporters that recognize that there dollars are going to his legal defense fund and his airplane and his fancy dinners at mar-a-lago and they don't care because it is their way to give a middle finger to the people they don't like. that, there are other people donating that literally believed that that money was going to an election defense fund, that there was fraud in the election, that believe the country is under threat, is under some information and that they, the little $10.00 donation is part of the effort to stop that invision and to support candidates that are going to put in policies that care about. there are some people and some elderly people in particular, people that aren't internet savvy that are getting conned, as "the new york times," has reported and others. they think they are making one donation and they are having a monthly withdrawal taken from their account. this has been happening over and over again. there are plenty of these reporters, supporters that are

getting scammed. i think this is potentially a useful political issue for democrats because it undermines a core message of donald trump that he cares about his people. >> look, kristi, the expenses aren't going anywhere. the cases remain ongoing. trump seeks to rent the strangled out because he doesn't want to be held accountable before november but he still has to continue paying his lawyers. he has settlement, he has bonds to pay up. he has a $175 million bond in the new york ag case, the civil fraud case. i mean, on that case, what is your expectation in terms of trumps ability to pay that without someone else putting a bond out for him? >> he asked for, when he filed his brief with the new york court of appeals, he said, "i want $100 million." so, they have now given him $175 million bond. i figure he's close and 75

million more, i would assume he would probably be able to find a source of that. it can't be his campaign. his campaign cannot pay for that civil judgment because that was purely personal conduct. they can pay for campaign finances related to his conduct in the campaign or as an officeholder but his campaign can't pay for this. so, i think, you know, he really is going to have to find other sources to be able to pay for that. it is insane to me, by the way that the bond was reduced for him to be able to do this, to go forward with his appeal. at the end of the day, this was a defendant who went in court and said his whole defense was time to rich to defraud. the banks just want to have a relationship with me. my business is good enough. they don't care what is on these financial statements. they just want to do business with me because i'm so rich. he just said recently he has

$500 million in cash and he's telling the court i can't pay that amount for a bond and they reduce it without explaining why. that is just head scratching that a defendant who made that kind of defense who don junior put on a timeshare presentation about the business empire and every property at all these iconic assets and to then come back and say what it is time to pick up, i can't do it. >> trump supporters are starting gofundme pages. it defies logic. there is a practical campaign implication here, tim, which is the robbing peter to pay paul aspect of this. he's funneling money away from his own campaign and from down ballot republicans so he can pay for his legal defense. i wonder when you look at the reality here, biden and the dnc combined cash on hand 97.5 million, trumpet, 44.8 million. numbers are often abstract, especially at that magnitude. tim, you know from campaigns, that would seem to have a meaningful difference in terms of how these two campaigns can operate in the coming months. >> there really is a limit to the pot. there's only so many small dollar donors to go around.

trumps campaign month to month is showing him losing ground with small dollar donors in an election year where he should be gaining. this makes a difference. i'm a little suspect of oftentimes how much marginal differences make on cash in a presidential campaign given the scope of information and how much money is being spent. eventually, you get to a point where there is a meaningful difference. right now, for example, joe biden's team is on the air. they are trying to drive a message about what he accomplished and addressed some of the age questions and donald trump's campaign isn't because his money is going to pay a bunch of lawyers and a bunch of grifters that work for him. i think at least on the margins in what might be a close race, could certainly be meaningful. >> you know in the state, the republican chair in michigan is ringing the alarm bell, someone need some ads in this state.

you got a problem. kristi bring greenberg, tim miller, thank you for joining me tonight. coming up, things are looking up for the biden campaign. while the republican party chair, in michigan, as we discussed is saying when is the trump run rnc going to start doing something in this state, anything? i will break all of that down with obama campaign manager david plough, that's next. at's.

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it is going db the position of the mifepristone in 2024 that the 2020 election was not fairly decided or that it was stolen somehow ? >> i think we are past that. i think that is in the past. the past is the past and unfortunately, we had to learn a couple of hard lessons in 2020. >> stolen election claims? that is all in the past, so says new rnc cochair lara trump. just hours after speaking with my colleague garrett hey, we got this reporting in ""the washington post"." >> those seeking implement have been asked in job interviews if they leave the 2020 election was stolen, making the false claim a litmus test of sorts for hiring. you want to work at the rnc? where do you see yourself in five years? what are your biggest weaknesses?

did joe biden steal the election from donald trump? we will reach out if we have any other questions. that is how things are going for one of the two major parties in the next presidential election. on the democratic side, the biden campaign is focused not on the last election but the coming one. recent polls show president biden gaining ground across the country. a new bloomberg morning consult polls show's biden tied or leading within the margin of error in michigan, pennsylvania, and wisconsin, all states biden was trailing in just a few weeks ago. joining me now is former obama campaign manager, david plough, host of the campaign hq podcast. david, thank you for joining me tonight. i was stunned by this warning that pete hoekstra, the michigan republican party chair issued to the trump campaign, effectively, saying they haven't made any significant general election investments in michigan. this is neither the campaign or the rnc. they haven't transferred any money to the state to help bolster its operations heading into the general. there are no specific programs in place to court focus of color and there is no general election field staff in place. how meaningful is that from a

campaign perspective? david. >> obviously, hoekstra knows how to put together a campaign. for those who have won campaigns , sometimes it is humbling to admit that they really make a difference on the margins. they don't change big things. but the polls you just showed suggest we could be heading to a chris collette say that is 48 to the winner in a bunch of battleground states, 47 and number five third-party. that is where campaigns matter. the obama campaign, we often use to talk to them as they are the field corner. they are not going to get you two touchdowns but they could be worth one, two, three point.

right now, joe biden's campaign is running ads on the air, donald trump's isn't. we just heard in michigan, one of the six or seven states that will determine the next president there's nothing going on. that is not going to change because all trump cares about is himself and sucking up this money to defray his legal costs. it's not going to change big things but if this race is like the one we just had in 20 and the one we had in 16, campaigns matter a lot around the margin. that is why i think you will see increasing republicans get concerned. of course it doesn't just affect trump, it really affects down ballot people who are harmed by his selfish, lackadaisical political effort. >> what do you attribute to the biden upswing too? we are talking incremental here. this is within the margin of error. nonetheless, it does feel like an inflection point. is it the halo effect, is at the state of the union? is it american voters having better vibes about the economy ? how do you look at the landscape? >> it is three things. democrats, i don't think swing voters, i think democrats are more enthused now because of the state of the union, because the president is out there

campaigning, number one. number two, voters feel better about their personal economic situation. three, probably the biggest factor is people are zeroing in on the fact that this is the rematch. it is a rematch a lot of americans don't want. it is the one they are faced with. at the end of the day, i think there are enough americans out there who basically, even if they don't approve of joe biden's performance as president say i just can't sign up for four more years of the trump circus. it's not going to help me or my family. i think you are starting to see some voters, even though it is very early, you are seeing more voters zero in on the fact that there is no fantasy of alternative options. these are the two candidates and you have to make a choice. >> to that end, politico is reporting that biden is pursuing an unusual strategy to remind americans of what was happening four years ago. usually you want to be future facing, relitigating covid-19 doesn't seem like something the american public wants but the biden campaign is betting, this is according to politico, they can turn the issue of covid-19 and a referendum on trump's

overall competence, reminding the american public health trump behaved in the emergency. from a strategy perspective, do you think there is peril in doing that, given the anguish and the trauma that a lot of people still feel when we think of the beginning of the covid- 19 pandemic ? >> you have to do it carefully. this is a very unique race. the last time we had two presidents running against each other was 1896, i believe. it has been a long time. we have two incumbents and so in that regard, yes, joe biden has to make clear, everybody out there says here's what i'm going to do for the economy, health care, the environment, a range of issues. but, you have to put trump on trial and his conduct as president. what i think this is important,

if done artfully, when you listen to trump talk about his presidency, he wants to forget the year 2020. you can't let them do that. you have to put this in front of people and say listen, bad things are going to happen in the next four years, they always do. do you really want this guy, who mishandled it in a historically awful way, you know, to be back ? a trump who is more diminished, who will feel even less accountability, who said he's going to surround himself with loyalists, you showed that rnc pledge about the 2020 election, there's no doubt that if trump wins, they will ask the same thing of everybody who wants to work in government. so, that is what we will be facing. you don't want to make it the cornerstone of your campaign but trump is trying to avoid 2020. i do think it is important. you can tie that to the future which is here is how he acted then, here is how it went the country then and he's going to do the same thing if he is given the reigns one more time. >> remind people that he urged americans to inject bleach into

their veins. >> among other things, yes. >> that is donald trump, ladies and gentlemen. thank you for your expertise my friend, it's good to hear from you. coming up, you may recognize this picture of supreme court justice clarence thomas and his conservative buddies smoking cigars at his billionaire benefactors lakeside resort but what about this affect photo from real life? what it says about the state of judicial ethics in our post roe america is coming up next.

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take a look at this photo. it is a lot like an optical illusion. the longer you look at it, the more you see. there is supreme court justice clarence thomas right in the middle, swearing in his protigi to be a judge on the fifth circuit court of appeals. judge james has his hand on the bible in the home of justice thomas's billionaire effector harlan crow. the year is 2018. judge james would play a crucial role in trying to restrict access to medication abortion across the united states. not only did judge james agree the fda improperly expanded access to abortion pills in 2016 and 2021, he was the only judge on that court to conclude right-wing doctors, in this case, the alliance for defending freedom suffered injury because women had access

to abortion medication. that case went before the supreme court yesterday, we are even those judges seemed skeptical that the plaintiffs even had standing to bring this case before the court, which takes judge james decision appear that much more unusual. now we are learning his wife, an attorney with the federalist society is linked to, what else, the alliance defending freedom. the guardian newspaper reports from 2018 to 2022, that group made at least six payments to alison it is unclear what exactly the group paid her to do but judge james says the money given to his wife was then donated to charity. the judge who was deciding a court case brought by a right- wing group is married to someone being paid by that same right-wing group. joining me

now is melissa murray, professor at nyu law and a cohost of the essential "strict scrutiny," podcast. melissa, thanks for being here. how in heaven's is this not a breach of ethics? >> again, she is his spouse. spouses are allowed to have paid income from other sources. this appears to be a series of honorarium. it does seem odd that judge james didn't consider the optics of what this looks like and why he thought this might be a case to recuse himself. all of this is just the thing rules we have for judicial recusal need to be beefed up. a few months ago, we had all of the supreme court making some gestures toward a code of conduct, which turned out to not really be a code of conduct at all. again, it seems like there is a real need for judicial reform across the board, not just at the supreme court but in the lower federal courts for rules regarding the sort of thing. >> it surprises me. i guess it shouldn't but that these effectively activists

like another judge that has been rubber stamp in a conservative lawsuit in search of a broader policy change, matthew kasmaric, that these judges don't even hide the activism at this point. what is it about this moment in time that licenses them to feel so emboldened, do you think? >> we have to recall that during the trump administration, the selection of federal judges was outsourced to leonard leo and the federalist society and heritage foundation, which we've heard about before and you've talked about on this show before. those judges were vetted to be movement conservatives. but they are doing now, what they feel emboldened to do is exactly what they were put on the bench to do. there is a comfort there. they know what they are supposed to do, they know the mission. they chosen to accept it and they are doing it. the other thing worth thinking about, this case you just talk about was heard at the supreme court yesterday. judge james was totally out there with his view of the

injury that these doctors allegedly suffered. it seems very likely that the court is going to issue a stern rebuke that this is not the kind of injury they look for for these cases. but, the fifth circuit and judges like judge who are so extreme, do a service for the united states supreme court, which has been moving to the right. when these lower courts are really out there, like pushing the envelope, as judge did, the court can reign it in a little, offer up what seems like moderation, get heralded by the press for their moderation, when in fact, the court is still moving to the right. they provide essential cover . >> they shift the overton window. >> overton french doors. this is not an overton window anymore. the doors are wide open and the court is moving to the right and we don't see how far to the right they are actually going. >> there's also something like a pernicious in terms of what is happening in judicial appointments. judge is so out of there, it's

a most like he's auditioning for a role on the supreme court. >> he is auditioning. >> look crazy i can be. >> i have said this on the show before . if donald trump wins the presidency or any republican wins the presidency in 2024, clarence thomas and samuel alito are very, very likely, almost certainly to step down. when they do, you have people waiting in the wings like judge who has been auditioning for this. that is what these outlandish gestures are. they are auditioning for the next spot on the supreme court to be donald trump's guide going forward. >> it is and audition tape, if anything. i want to get your thoughts on the way in which committees activists who are cloaked in judges robes are doing their part to move the conservative agenda forward. they are not doing a great political service for the gop on the whole. you see these judges, whether it is the judge in alabama ruling on ivf or the fifth circuit making decisions on mifepristone, they put into the center spotlight these issues

of reproductive freedom that maybe things conservative activists want but are terribly , terrible politically for the republican party. we see evidence of that last night in alabama, where marilyn lyons, who will be a guest in the next hour, flipped a republican state house seat in the state of alabama, largely on the issue of ivf. >> the republican party recognizes that its domestic agenda is not one that plays well to the electorate. the electorate is far more moderate than what the republican party is doing now. that might not matter so much if you have the courts. the courts are by design a minority or institution. what the republicans have bent on is they can do and prosecute through the courts what they could not do in majoritarian politics. the goal on the other side for progressives is you not only have to win elections, you have to win decisively and then you have to turn your attention to rolling back the conservatism of the courts. >> it is a multipronged effort

and potentially a multipronged solution. melissa marie, always good to see you. thank you for your time tonight. coming up, republican-led border policies are having a devastating effect on migrants seeking asylum in the u.s. and increasingly, it is in the form of sexual violence. we will have a special report from the mexican side of the u.s. border, right after the break. break. the ultra-low easy step helps keep you safe from having to climb over those high walled tubs, allowing you to age gracefully in the home you love. and now, back by popular demand, for a limited time, when you purchase your brand-new safe step walk-in tub, you'll receive a free shower package! yes! a free shower package, and if you call today, you'll also receive $1600 off. now you can enjoy the best of both worlds. the therapeutic benefits of a warm, soothing bath, that can help increase mobility, relieve pain, boost energy, and even improve sleep.

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when you go for something big like this, your kids see that. and they believe they can do the same. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card. make more of what's yours. today, a federal appeals court ruled a hugely controversial texas law known as sb 4 must remain blocked

while legal challenges continue. if allowed to go into effect, statesville 4 would criminalize integration in america's largest border state by giving texas police the power to arrest and jail migrants suspected of entering the u.s. illegally and it marks an unprecedented power grab at the state level. at the federal level, donald trump is also promising that if reelected, he too will use local police to arrest migrants as part of his massive deportation plan. >> as president, i will carry out the largest domestic deportation operation in american history. if they don't go back to their countries, we will never get back our country. >> migrants who are escaping violence and poverty and political uncertainty often cannot go back home. what these types of policies do is force migrants to wait in parts of mexico near the u.s. border, hoping to one day sort out their immigration status.

and, they are in parts of mexico where dangerous cartels are systematically exploiting migrants with devastating consequences. this is a special report from our msnbc contributor paula ramos. some parts of the story are difficult and disturbing to hear. >> we just crossed from brownsville texas. you know, we are in one of the most dangerous places in mexico, more than anything because of the cartel violence taking place here. every single person we've talked to on the ground telling us that the rate of sexual violence against migrants is escalating, it's increasing, it's getting worse by the day. we are on our way to a refugee shelter to understand the impact it's having on the migrants crossing from these border towns and the united

states. maria, her husband, and their two children say they had to leave guatemala last year after receiving death threats from the same gang that had already killed nearly half of her family. they traveled north, hoping to be near the u.s. border as they waited for their official immigration appointments, a crucial part of seeking asylum. they had no idea the worst part of their journey with take place just feet away from texas.

many of the migrants in the shelter have endured similar situations. ar situations. >> what is happening to these women might not be a coincidence. cartels have developed a systematic organized method to kidnap and collect ransom for migrants on the way to their immigration appointments. immigration appointments.

>> doctors without borders has seen this crisis up close. from october to december of 2023, they recorded a 70% increase in consultations for sexual violence compared to the prior three months. the first two months of 2024, they have already seen nearly 70 cases. i just got back to talking to asylum-seekers. at least two of them have been sexually assaulted. is that what you are seeing on the ground too ? >> our patients also tell us their stories, which are quite traumatizing. traumatizing.

abortions or abortion pills? >> we are very concerned all over the world. we are very concerned about the unwanted pregnancies. we tried to assure that services are offered to the women and to ensure that they, we ourselves adhere to the laws and norms of the country. >> reporter: what many migrants don't know is once they cross that border, a line that represents security, dreams, and opportunities, they are walking into the realities of post roe america. of post roe america. >> msnbc contributor paulo ramos joins me next to talk about trump, migrants, and what happens next. stay with us. happens next.

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throughout the years, mexican cartels have leveraged the long waiting periods that asylum seekers face on the mexican side of the u.s. border. today, these cartels are increasingly kidnapping migrants for ransom and weaponnizing sexual violence as yet another form of extortion. joining me now is paolo ramos. it is so great seeing you, you are bringing back stories not being told that need to be told as we have this rages debate about immigration but don't talk about the people involved. what did you see on the border in terms of the sexual violence? the story we played earlier was harrowing. and i wonder if you could talk broadly about the picture you saw when you were there? >> yes, so, when you think about the women that we just saw, i think of this image. right? these are women that are sort of stuck in between two call walls. on the mexican side of the border they are faced with this incredibly vicious sexual violence.

when you look the other way at the american side of the border, they are faced with post roe america. so the product of that is that suddenly, you are seeing this growing group of migrant women stepping into post roe america with rape related unwanted pregnancies and the reason why, we found in the reporting, is because there is this very alarming spike of sexual violence against migrant women. that is something doctors without borders told us. activists told us the migrants themselves and the difference now is cartel violence has always been the norm. the difference is the cartels are very explicitly weaponnizing sexual violence as another form of extortion, torture to get what they want. >> can you talk a little bit about how the cartels functionally operate? >> it is very simple and some people won't want to hear this. the longer migrants wait on the mexican side of the border the

more the cartels profit. cartel violence is very deeply intertwined with the u.s. failed immigration policy and failed asylum seeking process. the cartels have leveraged the long waiting times that immigrants are faced with because of policies like trump's title 42. and biden's cvp1 applications which pushes migrants to wait on the mexican side of the border as they wait for their immigration appointments. as they wait, and as they adapt to the different u.s. policy changes, so, too, do the cartels. through that time, they have developed simply more sophisticated and organized methods of violence. they know the routes. they know the buses. they know when the immigration appointments are. and so, it used to be that migrants could just pay with cash when you were held hostage. now you have to pay with your body. >> because you don't have the

cash. >> and that violence is not just more vicious. it is not just more terrifying, but now the problem is that we are feeling the ramifications of this violence. >> and they come to a state like texas where their options are no. what you are telling me is immigration policy is so broken it is forcing these extraordinarily long waiting times. there is no diminished appetite for, there is no appetite for decreasing the wait times on either side of the aisle here in the u.s. and migrants are effectively preyed upon by these cartels. is there any protection for them? is there any recourse for them as they effectively lie waiting to be preyed upon by dangerous cartels? >> i think that is something president biden should have done when he visited the border. you can say everything you want. we can talk about policy. but go to the other side and you will see this. so it is very important to

understand that. no matter how hard you want to make it for these migrants to the u.s., it is not deterred by walls, policy debates. it's not. people will continue to migrate north and so what do you do? >> the desperation is so acute and it is driving people to do things that are debasing their own, that force them to debase their own humanity. i'm so grateful for everything you do to shine a light on this. really important stuff. thanks for makeing the time tonight. >> thanks so much. >> that is our show this evening. now it is time for the last word with ali velshi who is in for lawrence. good evening. >> good evening alex. thanks for continuing to stay on the story of